Better late than never - pricing survey

[RihannaLovely]

Rihanna, I'm a monger and we've negotiated (but ended as a walk), so at least that's a basis of the possible prices that you offer and the prices that mongers can get at Sage and other Hof houses. From what I can see in the price survey, the average of the prices seem reasonable for an experienced monger which is probably the majority of the submissions. Also mongers tend to repeat with ladies like Abby, so that'll further push the data away from what you (Rihanna) may experience yourself.

We did not have a true negotiation because you gave me a bad vibe so I did not attempt to negotiate with you. I felt something was "off" and I didn't know what it was so I just walked you. In hindsight, the only thing that's wrong with you is your attempts to play price games so I would've partied with you because that's not a big deal.  But at the time, I couldn't put my finger on what was wrong so I played it safe and let someone else deal with it. 

In any case, it's worth noting that girls in all price ranges see repeat customers. I've partied for lower prices and I've partied for higher prices and I didn't see any difference in how likely it was Id see them again. I had a lot of repeats in all price ranges. I don't think it matters. That said, I always gave people what they paid for, so it's not like the people who paid more would feel ripped off.

Nowhere in this thread have I hinted that I think the pricing survey should be higher or lower. All I've said is that men and women continually lie about prices paid for parties. "Ohhhh, I paid that girl 100$ for 5 hours" and "Ohhh that guy pays me 5000 an hour" etc etc.  People lie about prices, end of story.

[QTo]

Could Hiking Guy add in percentile values in future reports? 50% would equate to the 25th and the 75th percentile.

[Tapper]

People lie about prices, end of story.

Shall we try and make a list of all the lies and deceptions that hookers use?  It would easily fill many pages.  Do you really want to go there? 

The only way to fix this for good is to stop keeping prices a secret.  Own it.
End of story.

[RihannaLovely]

People lie about prices, end of story.

Shall we try and make a list of all the lies and deceptions that hookers use?  It would easily fill many pages.  Do you really want to go there? 

Sure, I posted many times in this thread (including in the response that you are quoting) that women ALSO lie about party prices. BOTH sides lie about party prices. 

The only way to fix this for good is to stop keeping prices a secret.  Own it.
End of story.

I can't think of a way to make fixed, public prices and I would never work for a brothel that offered this. I've seen ladies on this board try to explain this but I'll try again.

There are many factors that go into a party price which include, but DEFINITELY ARE NOT limited to:

-Appearance of client
-Attitude of client (Nice guy discount? Asshole tax?)
-Time of party (Obviously more time=more money)
-Activities in party (And how these relate to the other factors like appearance)
-Mood at the time
-Penis size (In my case anyway. . .I wouldn't do anal with someone who was too big)


So, pray tell, how should I quote you a party price over the internet (IGNORING the fact that it is against the rules) when I don't know 5 of the 6 factors I mentioned above?

[COH]

People lie about prices, end of story.

Shall we try and make a list of all the lies and deceptions that hookers use?  It would easily fill many pages.  Do you really want to go there? 

Sure, I posted many times in this thread (including in the response that you are quoting) that women ALSO lie about party prices. BOTH sides lie about party prices. 

The only way to fix this for good is to stop keeping prices a secret.  Own it.
End of story.

I can't think of a way to make fixed, public prices and I would never work for a brothel that offered this. I've seen ladies on this board try to explain this but I'll try again.

There are many factors that go into a party price which include, but DEFINITELY ARE NOT limited to:

-Appearance of client
-Attitude of client (Nice guy discount? Asshole tax?)
-Time of party (Obviously more time=more money)
-Activities in party (And how these relate to the other factors like appearance)
-Mood at the time
-Penis size (In my case anyway. . .I wouldn't do anal with someone who was too big)


So, pray tell, how should I quote you a party price over the internet (IGNORING the fact that it is against the rules) when I don't know 5 of the 6 factors I mentioned above?

RihannaLovely

Sure there's many factors when negotiating for a party price.  Help me understand this one "- Mood at the time" and on page 6 of this topic, Tapper had a link for a previous Lady Aires post where she mentioned "Mood" can change a price.  Furthermore, I see you mentioned something was "OFF" with the negotiations with QTo.  Kind of like an "ON"/"OFF switch to party (LOL).  Rihanna, is that meaning if the lady is not in the "Mood" to party, then the price goes up?  In addition to, if the potential client accepts the party because the lady is not in the "Mood" could the result possibly be a substandard or "Bad" party?




Lady Aires

Something else about that link.  You mentioned, "This why Appointments get the best prices in my book".  Why is that?

[RihannaLovely]

Sure there's many factors when negotiating for a party price.  Help me understand this one "- Mood at the time" and on page 6 of this topic, Tapper had a link for a previous Lady Aires post where she mentioned "Mood" can change a price. Rihanna, is that meaning if the lady is not in the "Mood" to party, then the price goes up?  In addition to, if the potential client accepts the party because the lady is not in the "Mood" could the result possibly be a substandard or "Bad" party?

Yes, current mood can change a price. In my case, a bad mood doesn't necessarily mean that I would charge more for the same party. It would more likely mean that it would take a more significant amount to get me to party at all (vs sleeping or watching shark tank.  ). No, I don't think I would give a bad party just because I'm not in the mood. I try to put everything I can into all my parties so if I accepted the party---I'm going to try to show you a good time.

Furthermore, I see you mentioned something was "OFF" with the negotiations with QTo.  Kind of like an "ON"/"OFF switch to party (LOL).

Sometimes, I encountered someone who just gave me the wrong vibe. Luckily, we were never required to party with someone we didn't want to party with.

[readytoparty]

People lie about prices, end of story.

Shall we try and make a list of all the lies and deceptions that hookers use?  It would easily fill many pages.  Do you really want to go there? 

Sure, I posted many times in this thread (including in the response that you are quoting) that women ALSO lie about party prices. BOTH sides lie about party prices. 

The only way to fix this for good is to stop keeping prices a secret.  Own it.
End of story.

I can't think of a way to make fixed, public prices and I would never work for a brothel that offered this. I've seen ladies on this board try to explain this but I'll try again.

There are many factors that go into a party price which include, but DEFINITELY ARE NOT limited to:

-Appearance of client
-Attitude of client (Nice guy discount? Asshole tax?)
-Time of party (Obviously more time=more money)
-Activities in party (And how these relate to the other factors like appearance)
-Mood at the time
-Penis size (In my case anyway. . .I wouldn't do anal with someone who was too big)


So, pray tell, how should I quote you a party price over the internet (IGNORING the fact that it is against the rules) when I don't know 5 of the 6 factors I mentioned above?

Say what?  I don't get it!! 

1. Appearance of client.  So someone who comes in looking like a Hollywood beefcake should get a better rate than someone who comes in looking like a common Joe?  Someone in a $2000 suit is more desirable than someone in a pair of jeans?  As long as a person is neat and clean, it shouldn't matter.  Some of the greatest people I have met have been regular down to earth guys. 

2.  Attitude of client.  If a guy comes in with a chip on his shoulder / bad attitude, I am not going to party with him for any price.  Nothing to negotiate cause it is not going to happen.

3.  Time of party.  The length of time we spend together is an area to negotiate.  This does not include time we would spend before or after a party just talking.  I have spent lot of time just talking with my "regulars" and find them to be extremely interesting people..

4.  Activities in party.  An hour is the same length of time regardless of what we are doing.  How is it ok to charge someone $100 more for a party just because we might use $3 worth of some special oil in it?  If a guy wants a massage, does that somehow require some special effort.  An hour of time is still an hour of time regardless what happens. 

5.  Mood at the time.  If you are not in the mood to party, don't get in the lineup!!  People are not stupid.  A guy can tell that a lady is just not into it if she is not in the mood to party.  If a lady is tired, having a bad day, or just not in the mood to party; she has no business being paid by a client for a substandard party.  Regardless how much she tries to hide it, her attitude/mood is going to show through.

6.  Penis size.  If a guys is larger than average and wanted anal, that should come up in negotiation.  If he is too large, the rate wouldn't matter cause he is simply too large.  A higher rate is not going to suddenly make him smaller.  If a higher rate suddenly makes anal ok, then he wasn't too large to start with.

[RihannaLovely]

Say what?  I don't get it!! 

1. Appearance of client.  So someone who comes in looking like a Hollywood beefcake should get a better rate than someone who comes in looking like a common Joe?  Someone in a $2000 suit is more desirable than someone in a pair of jeans?  As long as a person is neat and clean, it shouldn't matter.  Some of the greatest people I have met have been regular down to earth guys. 

Actually, I didn't say any of the above. I also agree that being neat and clean is most important. I said "appearance of client" not "attractiveness of client".   (A side note: One of my favorite things about my time in LPIN was that it led me realize that "cute" clients weren't always the clients I had the best time with. Which now carries over into my dating life)

2.  Attitude of client.  If a guy comes in with a chip on his shoulder / bad attitude, I am not going to party with him for any price.  Nothing to negotiate cause it is not going to happen.

I'd say you are right that the "nice guy discount" applies more often than asshole tax. I've been victim to sweet guys convincing me into low rates by just making me laugh or being cute. One guy said, talking very fast,  "I have X amount, this is all I have. . .Please, please, please, please say yes!" That made me giggle and just accept the offer without further negotiation. 

3.  Time of party.  The length of time we spend together is an area to negotiate.  This does not include time we would spend before or after a party just talking.  I have spent lot of time just talking with my "regulars" and find them to be extremely interesting people..

Have to agree here. The brothel I worked at didn't allow us to spend much time with the customers outside of the actual party and I always hated that.

5.  Mood at the time.  If you are not in the mood to party, don't get in the lineup!!  People are not stupid.  A guy can tell that a lady is just not into it if she is not in the mood to party.  If a lady is tired, having a bad day, or just not in the mood to party; she has no business being paid by a client for a substandard party.  Regardless how much she tries to hide it, her attitude/mood is going to show through.

At the brothel I worked at, it was required to attend all lineups on your shift. In my particular case, the mood that would affect party price most would be "laziness", which is actually very easy to disguise.  Do I party with you or do I watch Shark Tank? 99.99% of the time I was extremely focused and wanted to work extremely hard. The other .01% of the time I was just going to watch Shark Tank and it would take a larger amount of money to convince me otherwise. 

That said, if I took the money, I was not giving a substandard party. 

6.  Penis size.  If a guys is larger than average and wanted anal, that should come up in negotiation.  If he is too large, the rate wouldn't matter cause he is simply too large.  A higher rate is not going to suddenly make him smaller.  If a higher rate suddenly makes anal ok, then he wasn't too large to start with.

Difficult to explain my thoughts on this, but penis size does affect anal prices in my book. . .and there are penis sizes that just aren't accepted for that party as well.   

[Interested bystander]

Could Hiking Guy add in percentile values in future reports? 50% would equate to the 25th and the 75th percentile.

There is a percentile table for both Rural and Urban houses.  This table has been in all of the pricing surveys all the way back to Bashful's original survey in the mid-90s.

[Rick James (RJ)]

watching shark tank.

Any particular reason you watch that show? 

[Rand McNally]

Say what?  I don't get it!! 

1. Appearance of client.  So someone who comes in looking like a Hollywood beefcake should get a better rate than someone who comes in looking like a common Joe?  Someone in a $2000 suit is more desirable than someone in a pair of jeans?  As long as a person is neat and clean, it shouldn't matter.  Some of the greatest people I have met have been regular down to earth guys. 

2.  Attitude of client.  If a guy comes in with a chip on his shoulder / bad attitude, I am not going to party with him for any price.  Nothing to negotiate cause it is not going to happen.

3.  Time of party.  The length of time we spend together is an area to negotiate.  This does not include time we would spend before or after a party just talking.  I have spent lot of time just talking with my "regulars" and find them to be extremely interesting people..

4.  Activities in party.  An hour is the same length of time regardless of what we are doing.  How is it ok to charge someone $100 more for a party just because we might use $3 worth of some special oil in it?  If a guy wants a massage, does that somehow require some special effort.  An hour of time is still an hour of time regardless what happens. 

5.  Mood at the time.  If you are not in the mood to party, don't get in the lineup!!  People are not stupid.  A guy can tell that a lady is just not into it if she is not in the mood to party.  If a lady is tired, having a bad day, or just not in the mood to party; she has no business being paid by a client for a substandard party.  Regardless how much she tries to hide it, her attitude/mood is going to show through.

6.  Penis size.  If a guys is larger than average and wanted anal, that should come up in negotiation.  If he is too large, the rate wouldn't matter cause he is simply too large.  A higher rate is not going to suddenly make him smaller.  If a higher rate suddenly makes anal ok, then he wasn't too large to start with.

Finding posts like this one makes it worthwhile enduring all the other nonsense on this board.

RE #2: I don't blame women for not wanting to party with some guys. I've sat in the parlor and watched the traffic, and if I had a vaginia, I wouldn't do at least 50% of them. I respect women like Abby with standards--I have less respect for those whose standards can be compromised with cash.

RE #3: Once I came down to Crystal just to hang out on the patio. The shift manager wanted to call Abby; I told her not to bother her since I was not there to party and I felt uncomfortable taking up her time. The next day I caught hell from Ms. Dixieland--"McNally, don't you ever come down here and not tell me you're here! You don't have to pay to talk with me."

RE #4: Same as #2 above. If a lady doesn't want to do something, more money shouldn't make her change her mind.

RE #5: I can see a plumber telling his customers, "I'm not really in the mood to work, so if you want your drain unplugged, its going to be $20 extra over my hourly rate."

RE #6: "A higher rate is not going to suddenly make him smaller..." Sorry to disagree Abby--every time a lady quotes me four figures for an hour party I can feel my schwanz shrivel.

[RihannaLovely]

watching shark tank.

Any particular reason you watch that show? 

Because it was the show I literally happened to be watching during my downtime. I watched all 100+ episodes and Mark Cuban may have a lot to do with that. 

[QTo]

Could Hiking Guy add in percentile values in future reports? 50% would equate to the 25th and the 75th percentile.

There is a percentile table for both Rural and Urban houses.  This table has been in all of the pricing surveys all the way back to Bashful's original survey in the mid-90s.

Cool, I guess what I'm trying to say is that using percentile is better than the current 50%/75% confidence intervals. CI is useful if the data is in a normal distribution, and given that the median differs from the mean in most cases, it's clear the pricing data isn't "normal".

For example, we'd like to say that there's a 75% prediction that a party in an urban brothel is ~$299-$968/hr, that suggests that at least 10% of the parties surveyed would be less than $300/hr (which most experienced mongers would agree is next to impossible to achieve due to $300/hr rural fixed pricing). Looking at the percentile table, 12.5% (or even 10%) lands at ~$400/hr, which is far more reasonable.

Hence, I'd suggest replacing the 50%/75% prediction with percentile values in the main tables.

[Hiking Guy]

Could Hiking Guy add in percentile values in future reports? 50% would equate to the 25th and the 75th percentile.

There is a percentile table for both Rural and Urban houses.  This table has been in all of the pricing surveys all the way back to Bashful's original survey in the mid-90s.

Cool, I guess what I'm trying to say is that using percentile is better than the current 50%/75% confidence intervals. CI is useful if the data is in a normal distribution, and given that the median differs from the mean in most cases, it's clear the pricing data isn't "normal".

For example, we'd like to say that there's a 75% prediction that a party in an urban brothel is ~$299-$968/hr, that suggests that at least 10% of the parties surveyed would be less than $300/hr (which most experienced mongers would agree is next to impossible to achieve due to $300/hr rural fixed pricing). Looking at the percentile table, 12.5% (or even 10%) lands at ~$400/hr, which is far more reasonable.

Hence, I'd suggest replacing the 50%/75% prediction with percentile values in the main tables.

QTo,

Thanks for the post!

I'm in Elko right now and a little busy doing more enjoyable "stuff" than statistics but I will get back to this post with my comments.

For now, just note:

a)  the 50%/75% Prediction Ranges in the SIN Pricing Surveys are NOT the same as Confidence Intervals (CI) which describes a range of how much the AVERAGE can vary (i.e. survey to survey by different individuals) and not the range of the individual submission data (also note, the CI is calculated with a different formula).

b) yes, it's true that the 50%/75% Prediction Ranges in the SIN Pricing Survey are based on a Normal Distribution and that is a shortcoming. I've been "toying" with the idea of using a LogNormal Distribution for these calculations since that type of distribution better represents the SIN Pricing Survey data (i.e. a LogNormal distribution looks like a "lopsided" Normal Distribution). However, I don't have a LogNormal Distribution function built into my version of Excel (2003--yes, I know it's old) and I'm not sure if the latest version of Excel (2013) includes one either and if not, I'd have to code one up and just have not had the time to dig into that (hence being 9 months late with the present survey). This is something I'd like to look into for the 2013-2015 SIN Pricing Survey since I'll have over a year to see how well a LogNormal Distribution would work with the SIN Pricing Survey data. For the next survey report (2012-2014) I'll have to stick with what we've been doing since I've already updated my templates for that update.

c) Like IB posted, pages 6 & 7 of the SIN Pricing Surveys are good resources to turn to for seeing where the actual data falls for any % range.  Using the Cumulative % on those tables, one can "kind of" see what rate/price range relates to 25% to 75% of the parties experienced by the survey participants. I say "kind of" since most times, you won't find Cumulative % values in the tables that are at exactly 25% & 75% (and sometimes not very close either) due to the "grouping" nature of the submissions (i.e. lots of submissions at $400/hr, $500/hr, $600/hr). I've seriously thought of adding a page like page 6 of the survey for each brothel in an appendix at the end of the SIN Pricing Survey report since it's easy to do with the Excel macro I wrote for this purpose but doing this would add 25 pages to the SIN Pricing Survey report since there were 25 brothels reported on in the latest survey.

d) The "large" (> $100) difference between the SIN Pricing Survey's Average Hourly Rate & the Median Hourly Rate (large/urban brothels) has only occurred with the two most recent SIN Pricing Surveys (2010-2012 & 2011-2013). With last year's report (2010-2012) I though it might just  be a "fluke" and was surprised to see that same > $100 difference trend with the most recent SIN Pricing Survey report (2011-2013) too.  It's something I'd like to look into to see why/how that's happening--it could simply be due to having a several really high hourly rate submissions that are "pulling up" the Average but not really affecting the Median (& I won't know for sure until I dig into the actual data to check out my suspicion).  Also something to keep in mind between last year's survey and this present one--the LoveRanch-Crystal was "classified" as a Large (Urban) brothel in the previous survey but in this recent survey, it's "classified" as a Small (Rural) brothel. That could also be a reason for some of the increase in the Average Hourly Rate in the recent SIN Pricing Survey (2011-2013) for the Large (Urban) brothels.

Again, thanks for your input and I'll try to get back to this (with some examples too) when I can.

The Hiking Guy

[Hiking Guy]

QTo,

Another thing I forgot to mention:

E) If the 50% or 75% Prediction Range, due to using the standard deviation in its calculation, ever exceeds the Full Data Range values (Max or Min), the Full Data Range values (max or min, whichever has been exceeded) will replace the 50%/75% Prediction Range values in the tables. So, if a calculated 50% Prediction (Low) is less than the Full Data Range (Low), the 50% Prediction Range (Low) value will be replaced with the Full Data Range (Low) value.  Also, if a calculated 50% Prediction (High) is more than the Full Data Range (High), the 50% Prediction Range (High) value will be replaced with the Full Data Range (High) value. The same thing is done for the 75% Prediction Range.  While this isn't "statistically correct" (& makes statisticians cringe), doing this keeps the Prediction Ranges from exceeding the actual data ranges (i.e. Full Data Range) in the SIN Pricing Survey reports, and is useful when a group (i.e. brothel) has a high standard deviation (STDEV) associated with it as indicated in the tables.  Otherwise, if we didn't do this, we could end up with Predicted Ranges (especially for the 75% Predicted Range) that exceeds the actual data range (Full Data Range) used in the SIN Pricing Survey report, which would be unrealistic since there weren't any actual SIN Pricing Survey submissions containing those Rate/Price points.


The Hiking Guy